Episode #119. Become a HEERO™ and make lifelong relationships with Dan Martin, Founder of HEERO and Raven Bartman and Alicia Johnson

Become a HEERO™ and make lifelong relationships with Dan Martin, Founder of HEERO and Raven Bartman and Alicia Johnson 

 HEERO™ is a revolutionary practice approach that recognizes the importance of relationships in overall health and wellbeing. Young people with lived experience are providing tools, helping others learn about adverse childhood experiences (ACES) and other to health using networks of people. They haved changed the way people in Canada work with people in child welfare care, juvenile justice programs, or who are otherwise systems involved. HEEROTM connects people with shared lived experiences and fosters an environment where they can empower one another to reach out to their important people. A network they chose, to support them on a path they create.

 “Trauma or ACES are not the children’s fault and so responsibility of healing lies with all of us”  
Raven Bartman, Senior Staff Peer Navigator, HEERO who overcame four generations of family in the system and helping others to do the same.

Do you want to become a HEERO™  and connect with people who truly understand what you're going through? Look no further, this is a brilliant episode that we can all learn from. Thank-you HEEROs.

Reach out here:
https://heero.ca/

Transcript

Unknown: 0:03

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the thriving minds podcast. I am Professor Selena Bartlett. Today we're joined by Danmark. Martin, who has 25 years of human service experience. And he developed and trains the hero model hero, meaning helping everyone, each other reach out. And he is joined by Raven Bartman, who is one of the senior staff, peer navigators, and is also an international consultant in the hero model. It's so exciting to have you here today and to learn more about what you've been doing, the reasons why. And also to reach out and help other people be able to reach you. Thank you for so much for joining us today, would you like to start by telling us a little bit about yourself and the audience so they can know a little bit more about what you're doing? Sure, thank you, I'll share FirstNet and invite invite Raven. So I'm I live in and half my whole life in southern Ontario, Canada. And I worked for 25 years in the in the child welfare field here in child protection services. Amongst taking, there were times where I took breaks and worked in adult mental health, addiction sectors, but kept getting drawn back to child protection. And in brief, I worked basically in every position possible, both frontline, Supervisory managerial, and in four different organisations in Ontario, and kept moving from agency to agency thinking maybe if I go here, it will be different. And what I learned was, it really didn't matter the agency, what mattered was how it was we were choosing to go up to deliver service to young people who we decided we would be their corporate parents. And my short story is we're awful corporate parents, period, end of story, that systemically we often do more harm than good. And the outcomes for young people who left state care are horrifying. And what I've learned over time is that's not isolated to Southern Ontario, but frankly, worldwide. Definitely North America wide. And so I decided I can either continue doing what I'm doing, because I did that whole Einstein thing, just working harder, trying to, you know, make something that's not working work better the next day, and going home with a belly ache, which was really important, because the belly ache was my own adverse experiences of the system. And we needed to pay attention to that. So developed hero. And basically, it came actually out of a conversation. And I'll speak a little bit further to this later, but that I had with a man named Kevin Campbell, who's well known in the in internationally, from family finding, and he's working family finding, and we had a conversation where we basically said look at the system can't do it, or is choosing not to do it. And it being helping youth actually do the reverse of what child welfare has done, which is disconnected and dismembered youth from their families, their communities, belonging, all of that. Could the youth themselves do it? If we created, you know, basically, the forum and a format? Could they do it? And the answer is a resounding yes. And so it's what led to hero and the development of hero. And maybe at that I'll stop and turn it over to Raven to share a little bit about herself and what brought her to hero because she has so significantly influenced its evolution over time. So yeah, I'll stop there. Yeah, so just quickly, thank you for the opportunity. My name is Raven Bartman. I'm 25. And I grew up in Ontario, Canada's child welfare system from the age of nine, and aged out at 21. Without permanency. And that lack of permanency significantly shaped my life. And I think it influenced greatly my implementation, I guess, or working alongside hero. So I think I started working alongside Dan at 17. In the hero process is a peer navigator and basically, a peer Navigator is somebody who has been in care and also went through the training of Dan's hero model. And as a peer navigator, there's just a different sense of credibility as opposed to working alongside a social worker or a professional because a peer Navigator has been through similar situations, similar traumas adversities and it just gives you know, you get to walk alongside somebody else's they create networks and you kind of dismantle or at In the dismantling of whatever the system has kind of pre outcomes for that youth or child. So, Raven, how did you come to find Dan and hero, Dan was actually a manager at the child welfare agency that I grew up in. So Kevin Campbell had come. I want to say for a weekend, and I think I was maybe 16, turning 17 At that point, and I was not a big fan, I guess, of a Kevin's model at 16. Very much. There were I was setting very systemic ways. At that point, I was closer to ageing out and I lacked permanency at that point. I was like, Why do I need people and that is the whole process of also family finding as well as hero. So I was very resistant to that. And I think it was just safety, right, that trauma responsive. Let me keep myself safe, because in the past, the professionals hadn't. So Dan had worked with Kevin, I want to speak for maybe a year I'm not sure the timeline, but then Dan started implementing his hero process. And you know that I wasn't a big fan at the start. I gained some trust in that with Dan and the people he worked alongside, I helped kind of, I guess, change put in some implementation of my own ideas within Hiro. And then the process was easier to do once I had kind of understood it, aided in it, and then understood the benefits significantly. I think there was pressure as I was ageing, that there's 21 being kicked out of the system was just looming, and I didn't know what I was going to do so recognising that you need people. But I do wish I started earlier, honestly, you know, I didn't have those trauma responses that kept me safe. My own eyes. In Australia, we only just made it 21. It was 18. So if you can imagine that scenario, it's terrible. So I think, at this point, it'd be really good idea to introduce the audience to the hero model, and talk a little bit about what, because people won't know what that is here. And then, if we start with Dan, and then Raven, if you could then add how you changed it or not, or made it relevant to the lived experience, I guess, or made it more. Maybe that's, you know, that would be great to understand. Yeah, I'm glad for, you know, both parts of the question, if I may, because what we see now, and I think we weren't, wasn't, you know, necessarily intentional, I think it was intentional, but not by kind of design, what we did was, we ended up looking to the youth as advisors. And we needed their advice. And I tell the story, and this will frame kind of talking a little bit about hero. When we started to do this, youth came to me and said, Oh, my gosh, someone is finally listening to us. This is exactly, you know, what we think that we need, you know, some of the youth had experienced our early kind of iterations of the process, and said, they just felt, you know, heard. And so they were, you know, for lack of a better term, kind of stroking my ego a little bit about, wow, I felt really cool and great. And then they looked me square in the face and said, Now, do you want to get it right? And that was like, in the, you know, there was kind of epiphany moments that led to hero. And then there's just a key epiphany moment, when we said wait a second, we're talking about not listening to youth and we're not listening to them in this process. Let's open ourselves up to this and see what really, truly pay attention to what they have to say, from their point of expertise. So hero so hero again, stands for helping each other slash every one or excuse me, everyone's lash each other reach out and the two E's in here are intentionally everyone is the staff that people are who are providing support and service to young people. We knew that we needed to shift mindset in a grand kind of way, as opposed to you know, at person doing something differently and and having the system push it back and push it away. So and then the second part was each other. It was youth helping youth help each other and we as staff being on the outside getting out of the way and allowing for and fostering the capacities and capabilities of young people to do the work. The process is a workshop based process, the workshop is a catalyst to a process, I want to really reinforce process. And so youth come in to hero. And I won't speak a lot about the detail rave and allow you to kind of speak a little bit to you know what what advice you were able to provide. But so youth come in. And the major goal of the process is for youth to regain a sense of agency in their own lives. And so that's designed into the process, everything we do, whether we're standing around throwing a ball around a box, is way beyond that, it's conceptually connected to something very intention on helping them understand the importance of adult relationships, as buffers to adversity. And it was very much it was very much in response to learning about ACEs and understanding the implications for that developmentally, and then, you know, the socio emotional outcomes for for youth and systemically how we would quite literally create those things. And so, yeah, it's a it's a workshop based approach where we bring these young people have like lived experience together, break down the silence and the isolation of living this life alone. And model the idea of building a network for bringing youth together so that they then work together to support each other to build their own lifelong, sustainable network. So they leave to that, instead of leading to the miserable horrible outcomes of homelessness, loneliness, I mean, we are the feeder system to the homelessness industry now and to other quote unquote, industries, including trafficking and so on. I didn't want to participate in that anymore, so we can speak more to it. But I think ravens voice is probably for Raven, why don't you step us through when you first came, and then what you noticed and your contribution, that'd be fabulous. Um, so what I noticed when I first started working alongside Hiro was this big sense of urgency within the professionals, so they weren't fully understanding that we needed people, they were understanding that the system was going to drop us off. And I think as youth, we understand that, but there was no pressure in it, because our whole life is urgency, right? You know, there's just that feeling. So we weren't fully grasping, and they were pushing us and pushing us and pushing us. And there were so many systemic barriers and emotional barriers have like traumatic, like trauma responses that kept us from understanding the urgency. And I just kind of had to, like, have everybody take a step back and be like, you know, you guys aren't understanding, you need to allow us kind of wait us into the water and expecting us to be jumping in. And I think allowing more of a weight was typing, having us form relationships with them, understand our trauma, and kind of how the system created or allowed that to happen. There was kind of a snowball effect within that. And then a big implementation was courage, worthiness and vulnerability. And so we implemented that. And that's an activity that we do at the beginning. And we have the youth define courage, what does that look like? What does that feel like? What does it sound like? What are experiences that allow us to feel courageous, so that it's all their own words, we keep it up and then we move into worthiness? So what is worthiness? What does it feel like? Are we inherently worthy? What are experiences that allow us to feel that etc? And then we move into her vulnerability? What is vulnerability? What does it feel like when we're vulnerable? How does it affect us? How does that show up? And then we have we ask them, do those words coexist? Can they have a relationship or connection between them, and often they understand that in order to be courageous, we have to understand that we're worthy and step into this place of vulnerability, and I think a lot of the hero workshop is understanding that vulnerable is okay. Because I think growing up in the system, we are placed in this very vulnerable state for so long and it doesn't feel okay, the trauma responses attached to that don't feel okay. So having this understanding that feeling vulnerable, doesn't have to be detrimental or dangerous, that that vulnerability and creating new relationships is healthy. You know, stepping into that and understanding that you're worthy sorry. My apologies. Just one second. Understanding that you're worthy to have relationships around you and then having the courage to reach out and do so and even courage and understanding that those relationships you know, should be developed beyond system should be developed beyond 21 and that you're deserving of having relationships that are lifelong or you know, unconditional to you mazing so are you open to share your story Raven? I can share bits and pieces of it pertaining to specifics. What are you looking for kind of exactly. So other people can understand what you went through and then, and how you had the courage to actually open the door and step into the hero. Because I don't, I think that's a very hard, amazing step for many people to actually take. And that's what I see out there. Because by the state time or age that you did do that a lot of people that I know in the system are not in that space at all. They're often many other things have happened that would not allow them to want to take that step at all. So I'm interested to know what sort of support systems that you had had around you that allowed you to outside the actual corporate system, were you in family or with someone that supported you or something like this, that because you're, you seem like a very amazing young woman. But what people listening might think, Well, how did she do that? Um, honestly, our youth are just the most amazing people I get to work with. And I wouldn't, I guess, say that it was support or other people that allowed me to there is so much strength in our youth, when they fully understand that they're worthy and deserving of better. In terms of my own story. My siblings and I were placed into care together. So I had siblings set up for an older sister and two younger brothers, were all very close in age. And we were placed in a kinship placement. For seven ish years, it kind of depended on which sibling they're talking about, on how long we ended up staying there. But it was an extremely abusive dynamic. It lifelong trauma, from that placement, but our agency had kind of deemed it as good because we were all together and it was kinship. And, you know, you can understand the logic behind that. But it didn't end up happening in the way that they hoped. So from there, my siblings and I were split up for the most part. And I ended up moving probably eight times between 14 and 21. And I never gathered permanency and it wasn't to my own. It wasn't my own kind of failures within that that didn't allow for permanency. It was just not meshing. It was different families with different needs. And it just didn't end up working out. But it shaped my life significantly. I'm not having that permanency. I think at age nine, when I went in, I never assumed that I wouldn't have gathered permanency. So at 21 that really hit hard. And even that age where I had met Dan, on, what was the moment that allowed you to enter the door of hero? What what guided you there? How did it happen? I think that's the piece that is quite difficult for lots of people to see that they need help, especially when you're so used to fighting everything on your own. So quite honestly, here, it was pretty forest fire agency. So Kevin, came with family finding and they were just kind of like go to this weekend. And I did end up staying, I didn't know anything about it. And I felt quite vulnerable to the situation. And then Dan pushed, Dan had a hero, which he implemented. And again, it was really pushed by the agency, they made modifications to be with how you were systems in the child welfare. So they had changed all of our social workers to kind of ageing out worker. So we were pushed into that. And we didn't really understand why we were there. But after connecting, I'd say the first day. It just kind of changed our mindset in terms of there was really an understanding, we were explained why we needed supports outside of the child welfare system outside of nine to five outside of these conditional people. And then I think we were all also close to ageing out of the foster care system. So just that looming kind of dread in what's going to happen next. I don't actually have any buddy a lot of the people that I was alongside. In terms of youth that I grew up with who were also in care, they have the same kind of outcomes were just congratulations amazing. Can you tell the audience that listening that don't understand any of this? What is the biggest misconception about children in that in foster care or others that people won't realise at all, especially people in the system managing young people From your perspective, yeah, that's such a good question. I would say that the trauma isn't their fault. You know, and we opted into this flow, the trauma isn't their fault, but that feeling is their responsibility. And as we get older, we need to understand how to properly heal and how the trauma of justice for them prior impacted us. We often also utilise like Knowledge is power. So in understanding our trauma, we're able to adequately move forward in a positive way. And I would say giving our youth the knowledge to understand what has happened to them what the predictable outcomes could be, and how to offset and kind of balance those, so we can move into a healthier space and grow. So I take that message that you're telling me that it's not something that you third is this idea, we call it aces or adverse childhood experiences, the works really well known for, which we'll talk about next for, you know, 30 years or more. You're saying that youth aren't privy to that information? Or they're protected from that information to try and think you're able to handle it? Is that what you're telling me? Yeah, so we speak to that a lot. Um, Dan often says, under the guise of safety, we are protected from that information, whether it's been too heavy for us to comprehend, we are informed around aces as we grow up in care, I actually heard it first in Dan's workshop at 17. And I was living those predicted outcomes. So with that information, it allowed me to gain knowledge and also place the fault off myself. So there were behaviours and outcomes, and things that I blamed myself for, like, why are you like this? Why do you act like this? And then understanding aces, having that information allowed me to understand why it was the way I was, what the repercussions eventually could be, or the predictable outcomes. And that allowed me to change my behaviour. It allowed me to understand the trauma and also placed the weight off myself where the trauma was not my fault that the healing is my responsibility. Yes, that's a very amazing statement that you just made. And that is so true. And so hard. And that's where heroes so much makes sense to me, because it puts guardrails around that healing process to do it as a village, because we need a village to heal all of us do. It's not just you know, in their system, our society needs to heal, too, doesn't it? Because it's creating this in our youth, and something that we need to deal with. Let's talk a little bit now. And we'll come back to that Raven, because that was such a powerful statement that you just made. Then what was your aha moment, when you saw the data for the first time around adverse childhood experiences or ACEs, people talk about trauma, and they call it and when you use that word in my mind, it makes it a blob. With adverse childhood experiences. Aces clearly label exactly a number and an amount. And it really changes our scientific understanding of how it affects brain development and leads to the consequences. View in the system for a long time. You've been across all of it. What was it like for you as being on the other side of the fence? We must for me, it was a big aha moment that crystallised everything I'd been searching for what was it like for you? It alongside a couple of other things. Were the where the aha moment. So the aha moment for me was moments that happened all together at one time, it was being exposed to the idea of this whole family finding movement. It was starting to, like literally pay attention to youth stories instead of you know, coming into work. And dealing with these kind of widget problems, you know, that oh, this okay, problem, we need to work on a solution. A child needs a drive somewhere, we get them a taxi cab, like literally this transactional kind of thing, but and I'm horrified that you know, I started in child welfare in 1994. It's not 1994 anymore. And it took me until what about 10 years ago to understand it Asus research even existed. When I started to learn from it I had a share with Raven and the young people I work with it I had kind of like parallel moments where it was like, oh my goodness, this makes sense that this just makes sense. And when so when I was in past say looking at at a raven in the world, and they were behaving in a particular manner, we'd say Okay, and what the system did was it completely individualised those things did not take responsibility for its role in by including the ignorance to that resort. So that was available, but then blamed the youth. And we bounce them around the system in a way that all we did with adversity was meet it with more. And when aces said to me, Dan, adversity, adversity, you need to pay attention to these adversities. And understand not only that, Oh, that makes common sense. This makes scientific sense. This makes sense in the context of and we often will say, to even look, when we're talking to the youth about it, we're talking about, you know, these these chemical changes that happen, that create a different neural path, that create, you know, outcomes, that now we can understand differently. And I will tell you, Raven is our lead around aces in teaching the youth around aces. And she said, one of the main reasons is because she has that credibility to be able to sit across from youth and make it real for them. And so and when she talks with the youth, they they kind of lean into the understanding. And you mentioned earlier about, you know, circling back to the the kind of aha moment. Learning also that one of the greatest buffers and it makes common sense to adverse experiences, having people around you, so we're going to be confronted with adversity, that's life deals adversity in various ways, not just the 10 kind of variables in the study, but it's going to deal us adversity, but how do we best you know, thrive in the in the context of that, and then I started thinking about my own like life circumstances, and I share a story where, you know, 35 years, I wiped my car out and, and Dad, and you know, and my dad comes, and he's there for me. And so, and it seems so simply can, it's not, what we do to the young folks is we say, Listen, where you're where you are, isn't good, it's not safe, we're going to make you safe. So we take them from not only their families, but everything, everything they identify with community, recreational activities, church, community, extended family, everything, we here, we placed them far out of regions, so they're not even geographically close anymore. And then we discourage those relationships at the very time they need them. And then we do it again. And we do it again. And we do it again. And we move them about the system, to the absolute detriment of them. So it was that and I want to just quickly, at the same time, also what happened, I won't go into the full story. But there was a young lady who was in care. And she was 15. And this particular date, she saw 11 different professionals throughout the day, everybody from school teachers, to the social workers to the child welfare agencies, psychologists, therapists, everything. And the next day, she was found hanging in her foster home. She shows all these important people we had assigned to her and she took her own life. And the reason I tell the story is that within less than 24 hours, 15 people not of our doing out of the states doing the 15 people who loved and cared for her who we didn't care about, showed up to make final arrangements for her and over 100 people showed up for her and her life at the funeral. And it was just the epiphany moment for me that said they exist. And the buffer to these adversities exist, what are we doing? And so those were key key moments for me. And amazing. I just have to pause for a second because it's just not right. So Raven, thank you for doing what you're doing. It's incredible. Can you tell people how you teach young people about ACEs, not the whole thing that you do, but just the introduction so that people can feel how you do it. And how you do it in a really safe way that really touches people that allows them to want to make that next step forward, rather than moving straight back into it. So we educate them around a hole of aces. So we start out letting them know that the topic is heavy, and that our main messages hope that this is in a predicted death or very kind of negative predicted outcomes. It's about education and knowledge is power, taking your pen back and allowing yourself to heal and grow from the information that you know. So we start off by saying that we talked about ACEs. So we go through the 10. And I just say make a mental note of your aces scores. It's important. They never tell us that's not our objective to know their number. But we go through each one root 10 We define them, allow them moments to think about it. And then we step into what the predicted outcomes will be. We talk about how it can affect health, social, emotional, mental kind of all of that and we keep The style very much a discussion. So interrupt me tell me that you, you know, I'm constantly asking, do you understand? Does that make sense? How are you feeling? Let me know if you need a break because the information is heavy. But our message, again, is hope. So it's allowing for a genuine, authentic discussion around traumas that have been in third. And then offering that knowledge that they can allow themselves to do differently with, you know, the things they can do. And I think it's very important to have those open and honest conversation starting kind of young, because our youth go through aces starting at a young age, you know, we know that trauma adversity lives in the body. So offering them that knowledge to understand is such a valuable gift in understanding themselves. And allowing, sorry, for kind of them to do different than the predicted outcomes. Yeah, so Dr. Anda, who's the pioneer who developed the ACEs study in starting in 1986. I mean, it's replicated 1000s of papers around the world. Now, it's taken a long time, it's still not really across many practices in this space, they're trying to become trauma informed, but they're not as informed. So as is like, the scientific understanding behind the blob of trauma. So what I'm leading to here are Raven and Dan is that people don't think children should be taught these kinds of things. I understand what you're doing. But also just as equally important, because the buffering system is really having as many healthy adults around you as possible. And healthy young people. It's so important that we have as informed carers, and the system itself should be do if they're asking young people to heal, then it's equally important that the adults are doing it the same time. So I think that's so that way children don't need to have that. Because it's not going to be like that. What you're saying is that the sooner that you understand it, the better. So Raven, tell me when you were sitting in that room for the first time, I don't know who delivered the ACES conversation. Dan might speak to that. How did what was the moment said that the key here, and Dr. Andy said, it's not a screening tool. It's not another label. We don't want more labels on people. And that's why it's so important. There's no numbers or anything. Dr. Ender made it really, really clear. And he's trying to change it because people are using it as a screening tool. And it's absolutely not a screening tool. It's an education tool. And I'm so glad that you're using it like that. And what stops people from like, what are the guardrails you're putting in place that people don't want to go down the blame route? Or the victim mentality? Yeah, like, how do we keep people safe? From that? Like, how did you stop yourself from wanting to get really mean, it's really good to be angry. But you know what I mean? Like, how do you keep it in the education space that allows people that hope of wanting to step forward? I think it comes into an understanding. So for a lot of us are our adversity aces comes from a generational space. For me, my family has been in foster care the last four generations, five generations. So in understanding aces, it allowed me to actually look at my mother's bases, and then my grandmother's aces, and then my great grandmother's aces as well. And I spent a lot of time over the last couple last few years with my great grandmother intimately and just kind of understanding why she was the way she was how the outcomes ended up happening. It aided in so much grace and so much forgiveness because it was never heard of intent. To have her children go into foster care to start kind of this generational cycle. That was never the intention. The intention was love. Fully and I recognise that through all like my grandmother, my mother, my great grandmother, and they did the best they had with the information and the life experience, the worldview that they had, and unfortunately, it was detrimental to the people in their family. It ended up in foster care, but that was never the intent. So do you want to tell a little bit about her unintended consequence, that beautiful story? That's the story no one gets to hear. Yeah, so my great grandmother, I think she had seven or eight children. And when her husband was off to war, she just I don't know a lot. She was pretty secretive. She was elderly. But when her husband was off to war, her children I believe, ended up going up to into care. I believe it was kind of a good In that circumstance where she actually kind of gave them over to foster care just kind of couldn't do it. And recognising that like being in that time and age, your husband's off to war, and you have eight children to take care of like, how do you manage that. And then I think in growing up, I recognised the adversity and the trauma, the aces that lived in my grandmother's generation from having to grow up and care, they very much harboured pain and trauma and aces throughout their entire life. Even so, my great grandmother passed away last year and just kind of watching the unhealed. I guess versions of her children around her death, like it made me sad. There was kind of an inability to understand and I believe, like Asus allowed me to understand fully through the generations that it was never anybody's intent. I don't believe there's a fault in aces. It is just people doing what they can with what they have. And I don't fault anybody for that. That's amazing story. And this is the hope piece around your conversations, isn't it? Because the hope piece is that when you move forward, you are actually breaking multiple generations. It's a very, that's why you say courageous, powerful. Not many people can do that. But with the right, as you say, buffered support, like the hero's journey, with a lot of support around you, it's it is possible. And that's what Dan mentioned earlier, the biggest buffer for all of us as a society is to have more people around us that care about us and allow us to take that step. So it might just take this one moment. And this is just such an amazing conversation. We understand this information really clearly. Now, do you think it's because as you just mentioned, beautifully Raven, about an all of us have these family secrets, by the way, it just plays out differently across the generations. Do you think that's the problem, we don't want to pull the curtain back aces pull a curtain back that's been maintained over many generations? Because Because as a society, we we always like to project like on Instagram and Facebook, the holidays in Hawaii, or the the college degrees or the bigger houses, do you think pulling the curtain back where these secrets are actually in every family? I haven't really met a family that can escape them to be honest, and it's nothing wrong. It's just where we are. Do you think that's why we can't make systemic societal change? I'll try to be brief on an individual level, we systemically reinforce shame. We don't give permission to families who we and your right, we all experience to varying degrees, that we don't in general. And in fact, so our systems and in child welfare, I believe in youth justice, I believe for the adults. One of the things I was going to insert in the last part of the conversation is we realise this, and to your question around, you know, youth having to confront this over and over and over again, generation to generation we said wait a second, we keep we're doing this and we're quote unquote, catching people like Raven, and then they're doing work non us to you know, shift kind of trajectories. But then we look left, and there's someone else coming. So that's what was one day I was watching literally watching like, as a participant observer in a workshop and watching these kids just amazing and said, if they can do it, why can't their moms and dads, and so it led to the creation of adult hero and what you know, and what people had in common, like youth had lived experience and care in common. And it came around and wrapped around that these people had a quote unquote, relationship with child welfare and their relationship was isolating punitive, and very lonely. And we said, let's break all that down. Let's bring them all together and show them how powerful they are. Because the youth taught us they can. It's all capabilities. They're so wonderful. All we're humans were wonderful, but we decided we would judge each other. So we pitted ourselves by way of the service structure against each other. And I think to your question, and by the way, it was magic to be a part of, to ultimately see these people not from a place of pain, or excuse me, yes, from a place of pain, not from a place of punishment, but a place of welcoming and bringing them together and celebrating their their their their strengths and wonderfulness. And I mean I every time I hear Raven talk about her great grandma, I tingle because we stood in the way of that as a system forever. And so, you know, we are an ingrained in the services system. And if it's a services system, we have the services and you don't. So we have power over you. And we're going to maintain that power over you. And the whole system is designed around that And we need to stop that we need to stop that. And we also need to stop saying, Well, we're the expert. I'm the expert on ravens life. But how'd that go for the first 18 years of your life? Raven? Yeah, not so good. And, and, you know, Raven and I have evolved a relationship over time where, if you ask her how that go free, she'll tell you, and good for her. And it was about time I listened. But the greater systems aren't listening to shift in an alert, wait, we're not listening to the available research to be able to shift. And so I think that really kind of, you know, goes into what you're saying. And the other thing I would add is this, I had to reckon with the fact that from 1994, I behave in a particular manner in the role because, you know, that's how I learned. And also, you know, my own value systems and so on, played a role in that, and in some ways, positive ways. But still, I played a role, I had to be able to look at myself in the mirror and say, Damn, what you did was harmful. And it's okay, you didn't do it with intent or on purpose. But you know, now, so stop it. And that's a huge thing for individuals, organised organisations, state systems to look in the mirror and say, we're actually not helping, we're causing harm, we got a shift, and the nature of the harm we're causing is generation to generation to generation, we need to shift. And I think that's at play in the whole secrets, let's just keep the secret and keep doing what we're doing. And we'll add to it not to it. Well, you know, if you add arsenic to something that you're doing, it's just going to be arsenic. And so stop it. The Raven, in terms of family? Have you been able to help your own family understand this and like yourself, I know you're courageous and strong. What has been the response? I think it depends on the generation that we're talking about. My siblings, for the most part, they've been able to develop kind of networks. And also so when I developed my network through hero, it aidid kind of my siblings having a network as well. One of the significant people was my uncle, biologically, who we hadn't seen in 10 years, you know, is very much kind of a staple in my youngest brother's life. Amazing. How old is your younger brother? Oh, I'm 25. So he's 23. That's so fantastic. He's also by the way, ravens brother is also someone who's engaged as a peer navigator over time, our biggest challenge with a number of the youth is that, that as they engage in the trajectory shifts, then and I know the story with respect to the uncle and and there's, you know, possibilities and doors open and so on. And so he's, he's been able to, like land a really good job, but he's moving forward and so on. Where, you know, from a predictability perspective, the worries in terms of outcomes for kids, the trajectory would continue. So sorry, sorry, for interrupting. Yeah, I don't want to say hey, Raven, that you mentioned, a big point is that the end, what you're doing with Hiro is this peer to peer support. And we want to just can we just double it double down on this emphasis, social connection and network can buffer generations of aces. Rather than having to go in and deal with each thing through talking about it all the time, or you're trying to do a whole lot of different things that might take a year, you're telling me that just having a working out how to interact with the network and know that they're there can buffer and help you move forward? That's a huge statement for understanding differently. And also it shifts blame like, as you said, there's potentially like some unveiling the curtain that can lead to blame and allowing and understanding aces. I think it kind of, yeah, shift the blame. So you're not really blaming anybody. It's a sense of understanding around trauma and how it affects, you know, on an individual level, and then when you're able to recognise how it individually affected you, you can look back at your mom, and for me being in generations or parents, and being generations of that I was able to look back three, four generations and shift blame, you know, I don't blame anybody. So in terms of the previous generation for you, has there been an openness to hear and see this? I think with my great grandmother, so I don't have contact with my mom. I just think for me personally, the ACES piece allowed me to change my understanding around her and how she parented and her capabilities within that with my great grandmother. We had to talked about it briefly and there was kind of understanding. But again, it was very much an individual level of understanding. I spoke about kind of trauma with her siblings after she had passed and there wasn't kind of this grasping that I had hoped and sense of understanding or her, but they were also they're very much older 80s 90s. So just that they were kind of set in their beliefs around what had happened. But I think the shifting was very much individual and allowed for understanding and grace. You know, I can put out aces information, and I can provide knowledge. But it's not my job to ensure that it's grasped to like between my family, just so I know that it is that there's no blame. And for me that lifted a weight, you know, I've been told for years that it had started with my great grandmother. And for me in learning aces, it didn't start with her. You know, it allowed me to have a very close relationship with her. And she very much was one of the biggest supporters, mentors, while she was alive, and even in her death, I'm still learning and she's still guiding. And it's very different than the generations before me that maybe didn't have an Asus understanding. So Alisa Johnson, also another peer navigator, Id hero, nice to meet you. And thank you for coming onto the podcast. Tell us a little bit about how you came to hero. Yeah, I can do that. So I came to here a little bit after Reagan did. She actually was training to be a peer navigator. When I did my workshop, which I avoided for a couple years prior to, I didn't want to do it. I did it just to shut my worker up. But I went. And I it was a three day process when I did it. And it was it was a lot. It was heavy at first. But in doing the process, I think, you know, the first day, I was very much the typical hood on you know, not talk to anybody who don't want to do the work that we've kind of normally see. And that was that was me. I didn't want to be there, I just was there because I felt like I had to so I didn't really want to do. And then it was kind of the third day that you know, Raven, and few of the other people there. And one of those staff kind of you know, work with me one on one. Raven was always kind of encouraging, she was always checking in on me. But it was really kind of kind of being taken aside. And I did the work one on one with another staff. And I kind of opened up to the process and realise what the process is and what it can offer. Which really kind of helped get me reconnected with people that are important. And realise that the things that happened to me are not my fault, but that I am deserving of those relationships. And it taught me a lot about myself. You know, that I had a lot of learning a lot of growing to do. Definitely a lot of ACEs that I had to work on myself. But this process helped me in doing so. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was it's it's been a good. I want to say five years now. Damn it. I've been with you guys. Last year. That's amazing. So we spent a long time talking to Raven about what made her open the the heroes door and to hear that Raven was on the other side of your door. Is this the perfect circle? And, and to hear what everyone feels. And that's why we've focused a lot of this on the conversation is opening that door is is a really hard step, isn't it? And the fact that you've had somebody making it, do it, I guess is like a parent in some sense. But not wanting a parent. But yeah, so parents and stuff. Yes, exactly. In some sense. A parent, you'd hoped you'd have kind of thing in some sense. So yes. What I'm really curious because there's lots of people listening that are either going through what you're going through or in the system helping other people or just parents in general. So tell us about the moment that allowed you to open yourself to this information that didn't make you just leave and not come back. That's a really critical point for us to understand, because so we can help because what you you're doing is helping other people be able to sit for that extra five minutes a bit longer to open themselves up to, this is not an easy thing to do. And none of it is your fault. That's absolutely certain. But being brave enough to hear the science, and then want to step through that hope circle that Raven talks about a lot and be courageous. Can you remember that moment, I can see that moment. For me, it was very different than ravens moment. And I think everybody's moment is gonna be different, of course. But mine actually came kind of in a really dark place in my life. Mentally, I was not doing very well, health wise, in general, not doing very well. And I actually was in the hospital. And I had kind of pushed everybody away. And this was a year or so after doing the hair process. You know, I pushed everybody away, I disconnected myself from my circle, my group of people, you know, I really didn't feel worthy of any kind of connection. I didn't, you know, I kind of fell into, I guess you could say that, you know, the stereotypes that they so often talk about children you falling into. And I just, you know, it was in that moment in my life where I was in the darkest hole that people showed up for me. They showed me that, you know, the things that happened to me, were not my fault. The things you know, growing up in care that happened, the trauma, the abuse that I went through, and none of that was my fault. And then I didn't have to blame myself for it. But I also didn't have to carry that weight myself. That the people wanted to be there, they showed up not because they had to, but because they wanted to. And they showed me that, you know, I am worthy of being loved I am being cared for. But also that I so I don't have to take the burden for everything. Because it's it's not my fault. But I very much so blamed myself for everything. So they helped me see that. And Raven, and Dan, every day encouraged me. And they continue to help me see that things that happened and continue to happen. Oh, well, thank you for sharing. I know that's not easy. And also, I imagine now you are now showing up for other people too. Yeah, it can be a lot. But Raven always says, you know, make sure you take care of yourself. And that was something I wasn't doing. And we really strive to help people see that you do have to take care of yourself in order to take care of others. And that was true, and I didn't believe it at first, you know, because I am one that gives gives gives and doesn't take anything in return. But also doesn't put myself first or put myself out there. So this process and learning about ACEs really helped me to realise the importance of Yes, thank you for letting me share and have an ace is understanding it totally. And that's the beauty of science and knowledge, honestly, and having an educational approach to this and it's power. I don't think that piece I feel like it's a missing piece in the whole conversations we have around in foster care agencies and others, they don't understand the power of education and sight. I mean, they're trying. But as you said, Daniel, you've been in the system, multiple different agencies. It's very much an urgency emergency crisis kind of situation. That's what I see anyway. And they're always got some crisis and a lot of staff turnover, as well. Yes. So, so let's, let's say what would you like to do next? What would you how would you like to? I'm calling you from Australia, you're in Canada. I know you want to take this internationally? What can we do to help you? How can people get in touch with you? And do have something online that they could look at doing straightaway for someone like Raven who wants to open that door to hero but they're in Australia or people in agencies that want to learn more? So do you want to tell us how, how they can what they can do to reach you? Yeah, for certain I just want to if I if I can before I do just say this? Raven wrote this to me a few days ago. And if I can share it, I did not ask permission. And I usually do but I think I'm okay here Raven and if I'm not you Tell me offline, I can take it out. Okay? She systems can be a tool in terms of healing. But the fault is when they're expected to be your only source of survival and healing. And to me that is the crystallisation of what's needed and necessary. And I just thought, and I think to your question about, you know, the views of systems around young people is the truth is that we are so deficits focused, that we create deficit, in our view of young people as a whole. When, for me, what happened was, this, this whole potential and opportunity open to see Oh, my God, like, they're brilliant, they're way smarter than we are. And it makes sense. And they can guide this differently. They know, it's just that we need to value them enough for them to know that we know and, and as we did, systems can be a tool in terms of healing. But the fault is when they're expected to be your only source of survival and healing. And to me, that is the crystallisation of what's needed and necessary. And I just thought, and I think, to your question about, you know, the views of systems around young people is, the truth is that we are so deficits focused, that we create deficit, in our view of young people as a whole. When, for me, what happened was, this, this whole potential and opportunity open to see Oh, my God, like, they're brilliant, they're way smarter than we are. And it makes sense. And they can guide this differently. They know, it's just that we need to value them enough for them to know that we know and, and as we did, you know, they've changed literally change the trajectories of young people's lives. As far as hero. You know, we're currently working in Canada and the US, we have some potential opportunities coming elsewhere, but we want to, the goal isn't to be the experts in what we're doing. It's to share what we know and share the likes of people like Raven. So we have a website www.hiro.ca. Tara, two E's, by the way, yes, hero with two E's, thank you. And all of our contact information is on there, we offer everything from, you know, they are our consultants who have knowledge beyond. They'll do public speaking and share if people are interested in engaging them. But we'll also our whole focus is to kind of teach what we do, and we do it through experiential learning. And so if there's interest, reach out, let us know. We want to kind of spread the word and thank you for sharing because it helps everyone because that's what we spent a long time talking about opening the curtain to the what we call the family secrets that people don't like to talk about. But the thing that really are that they're the game changer, though, isn't it? When you open the curtain, it does change the whole situation, it allows us to see something we didn't want to see. And it does really shift our focus away from it does, yeah. Yeah, and it can be an uncomfortable, you know, curtain or door to kind of open but leaning into it, and leaning into the sphere that can come with that opens you up to a world of possibilities that if you don't just, you know, open the curtain, you'll never know you have no, I don't know if that makes complete sense. Fair. Absolutely. And can be I just have to it can be uncomfortable. And there can be, you know, a lot of fear. But we came into it, because it's so. So we're saying it's so true. And you know, the the important point of our podcast is for people to realise that everyone has a curtain. So one of the tag lines for our podcast is making brain health become everybody's business. And part of the conversation here is that without seeing that, we always want to put it on to someone else. And this is what you talk about a lot how the system makes someone other when we are all the same people. We just have different numbers, different aces. Some of us won't even be aware of ours because we inherit them from that previous generations. Some of us get lucky it's I call it the genetic lottery of life. Which it really is. But being a hero and I love the tagline of yours is helping eat everyone and then each other reach out to know that that journey is actually it actually is the number one thing that can be offer a lot of aces. And that's and we have to keep reiterating that because we tend to like, want to do all sorts of very complicated things. But that network and circle it can do a lot too. So thank you for taking the journey. First of all down. It's hard to face up to the reality of our situations, it was very hard for me to draw the curtain back and for me to see how wrong I was in my research and my family history and to see why my sister also developed mental illness and then change my research programme. It was very painful, but like you said, once I did, everything became really clear and that I get to meet people like you as a consequence. So thank you, Dan, for starting hero. Thank you Raven, for opening the and Alicia peer navigators, international consultants for opening the door for others to be able to step through, because without you there, I don't think anyone else can stay inside that room and maintain the journey because it is courageous, isn't it? A courageous journey. So thank you for being heroes, and thank you for joining our podcasts and giving us your time and for helping so many others.